Help Tracing Norwegian Ancestor(s) + Immigration/Travel to United Kingdom

[Anton Hagelee]

Slettet

 

 

Endret August 15 av Anton Hagelee

[Ellen Charge]

@Anton Hagelee Thank you for your excellent work so far and for taking the time to help me! I remember noting the Danish link previously and wondering what the context or circumstances for that could be. It's odd that the translation incorrectly listed A. Hansen as Sacharias' father (given his patronymic) is most likely called Simeon. This family, in the very least, seems a little more well-travelled than the other and their location makes me think seafaring would be more prevalent in a family such as these over the Hedmark family who are more inland. Naturally, someone from the Hedmark family must've left Norway for me to be connected to them, but at least the movements of the Finnmark and Troms family might be clearer/better recorded. 

[Anton Hagelee]

16 minutes ago, Ellen Charge said:

It's odd that the translation incorrectly listed A. Hansen as Sacharias' father (given his patronymic) is most likely called Simeon.

 

The record is an engagement record and does not list the fathers of the two participants but rather the two are names of the witnesses. They can be related to the bride and groom  but that is not a requirement. The two witnesses are Absalom Hansen and Hans Kjerland. 

 

trolove                 betroth, engage
trolovelse              betrothment, engagement
                        (This is a public announcement (in church) of betrothal was 
                        a legal requirement. Without it you could not marry. 
                        I think these lasted until late 1800 or even early 1900's.)
trolovet                (see "forlovet")

 

https://otjoerge.wordpress.com/norwegian-american-dictionary/p-t/#T

 

 

From AI 

 

Yes. While the word trolovene specifically translates to "the betrothed ones" (the couple), the historical custom of a trolovelse (betrothal) absolutely required a pair of witnesses (and sometimes more) to be legally valid

 

 

 

Endret August 15 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

I took the liberty of starting a second thread specifically for the Finnmark family It did manage do get some action out of the Norwegian contingent 

 

 

 

[Ellen Charge]

@Anton Hagelee Thank you for linking the Finnmark thread and sharing your research! The translation in particular is a massive help as I do not speak Norwegian (although have learned some basic things through research like occupations and so forth). I'll take a look at what you've shared there! 🙂

[Anton Hagelee]

55 minutes ago, Ellen Charge said:

I'll take a look at what you've shared there!

 

Unfortunately Ellen I was unable to find a connection between either the Hedmark family or the Finnmark family and England. 

 

[Per.H.Skaug]

Ellen, Anton,

have you been able to identify anyone in Norway who shares the DNA with both the Finnmark and Hedmark links? If so, you may be able o pinpoint the person who went to England. It sounds unlikely (but is not impossible of course) that there would be an NPE with two different Norwegians, so i think it is more likely that the Norwegian who became the ancestor is a relative of both the Finnmark and the Hedmark lines.

[Anton Hagelee]

37 minutes ago, Per.H.Skaug said:

Ellen, Anton,

have you been able to identify anyone in Norway who shares the DNA with both the Finnmark and Hedmark links?

 

Per, thanks for addressing the question from Ellen. I have not been able to find any connection between England and the Hedmark family. So I started a separate thread focused on the Finnmark-Tromsø family. If you have the time it would be great if you would look over that thread. 

 

 

[Ellen Charge]

45 minutes ago, Per.H.Skaug said:

Ellen, Anton,

have you been able to identify anyone in Norway who shares the DNA with both the Finnmark and Hedmark links? If so, you may be able o pinpoint the person who went to England. It sounds unlikely (but is not impossible of course) that there would be an NPE with two different Norwegians, so i think it is more likely that the Norwegian who became the ancestor is a relative of both the Finnmark and the Hedmark lines.

I cannot identify any of my matches who match both sides, they form distinct genetic clusters so it seems to me that they are unrelated. I based this not only on matches in common but on those who triangulate (share the same DNA segment[s]). I thought it seemed unlikely too, but it seems to me that I may have two distinct Norwegian ancestors. Based on how much DNA I share with them and how many matches I have, the Hedmark link seems more recent while the Finnmark one seems a little more distant. 

[Anton Hagelee]

11 minutes ago, Ellen Charge said:

I cannot identify any of my matches who match both sides, they form distinct genetic clusters

 

Ellen, good of you to weigh in on this discussion. What do you think of Berteus Simonsen as a potential candidate for the mystery man from Finnmark. I am hoping that involving more folks ie Mathias and Per will enable us to get a little clearer picture of who might be candidates 

 

It probably complicated things by me starting the second thread but the first was mostly focused on the Hedmark family and I was beginning to get the two families mixed in my head and needed to separate my efforts. 

 

 

Endret August 20 av Anton Hagelee

[Ellen Charge]

@Anton Hagelee Is Berteus a brother/relative of Sacharias?

[Anton Hagelee]

12 minutes ago, Ellen Charge said:

Is Berteus a brother/relative of Sacharias?

 

Brother, 

 

Four of them, Zacharias (Sacharias), Lars, Søren and Berteus. And I think two sisters 

 

Lars has a large group of descendants in various places in the US but no connection to England.

 

Søren is a bit like Zacharias with several children born in Norway

 

Berteus is the one with very little know about him. He had a illegitimate daughter in 1806 but nothing know of him after that

 

 

Endret August 20 av Anton Hagelee

[Ellen Charge]

@Anton Hagelee What made you hone in on Berteus? Is there any inkling of him leaving Norway?

I thought one useful point of entry might be looking at prisoners of war from the early 1800s as many Norwegians and Danes were captured and taken to England. I did find a couple with names that were in the Hedmark family and matched the ages, but the birthplaces listed were incorrect and so it seemed they weren't the same people. This could be a way by which some Scandinavians ended up in the UK without willfully emigrating. 

[Anton Hagelee]

4 hours ago, Ellen Charge said:

What made you hone in on Berteus? Is there any inkling of him leaving Norway?

 

 I was adding to my post about the same time as you were posting but the answer is that he was born in 1781 and shows up with the family in the 1801 Census, age about 19. Then shows up again for the birth of his daughter, in 1806 ,no marriage as the lady married a Gustav Olsen shortly thereafter. After that I could not find anything on him. 

 

The Geni.com has him for the birth of the daughter but nothing after. And that Tree is quite detailed so I began to wonder about him. He would have been about 24 in 1806 so should show up somewhere. 

 

So where did he go and where and when did he die?

 

Endret Fredag 02:01 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

In the other thread Mathias pointed out the fairly large number of children born to Zacharias (Sacharias) as something that would likely have kept him in Norway most of the time. 

 

So looking at the other brothers for example Søren had eight children from 1824 to 1842 Also this might make Søren less of a candidate. The list of children is posted on the other thread. 

 

Lars is listed as having six children in the Geni.com Tree. I have not checked all of them out but I did look at a couple and they match the Geni.com Tree. I  have not looked at the families of the two girls they should also be looked at. 

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Simon-Seljeelv/6000000022451971067?through=6000000022422356898

 

Anne Marie Simonsdatter was single and age 25 in the 1801 Census

 

She died in 1839 in Tromsø, Troms, Norway. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000006648376

 

 

 

 

 

 

Endret Fredag 02:28 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Some digging in Ancestry.com turns up the birth of a son for Anne Maria Simonsdatter. 

 

Henrich Nilsen

Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927

Name

Henrich Nilsen

Gender

Male

Baptism Date

1. des 1816 (1 Dec 1816)

Baptism Place

, Tromso, Troms, Norway

Father

Nils Henrichsen

Mother

Anne Maria Simonsdr

FHL Film Number

127178

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/60092/records/20400280?tid=&pid=&queryId=15a551b0-5c70-4081-b3e5-b0800a9281ec&_phsrc=gRO9&_phstart=successSource

 

 

 

 

Endret Fredag 02:38 av Anton Hagelee

[Per.H.Skaug]

I have now read the second thread about the Finnmark DNA cluster. I still haven't looked at this in detail (so probably shouldn't really jump in yet), but it looks like the DNA that is shared is rather limited, aside from with T Graesmo, which should be enough to prove a definitive link.

One thing to bear in mind, though, is that at times there was significant migration from Hedmark to the Northern parts of Norway, due to flooding and famine. One of these floods was Storofsen in 1789, which resulted in extensive flooding, including in Våler where at least some of the matches in Hedmark was found.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storofsen_flood 

I am not saying this is the case, but some of these migration patterns may have resulted in someone from Våler migrating to the Northern parts of Norway. So it is not entirely unlikely that the person who is the missing link has one parent or grandparent from Våler, and the rest from Northern Norway (or reversed). Not that this helps us in any way to identify the person at this stage, but maybe it will. 

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

I think we should switch to Norwegian in order to involve people with local knowledge. Unfortunately, I do not have time to follow this up myself, but I have found some information that may be helpful.
In the link to the 1865 census, we can see that Mathias Halvorsen and his family were living at Vestre Gjerdrum (Vestby).

In the local farm book for Våler (which, unfortunately, is only accessible from Norwegian IP addresses), we find, under Vestre Gjerdrum on page 218, a man named Morten Paulsen. He travelled to Copenhagen around 1803, and it is mentioned that his son, Jørgen Mortensen, was a prisoner of war in England around 1810–1812:

 

https://www.nb.no/items/f226a1a5e4a9e605989e5dc9f5fc00fb?page=221&searchText=krigsfange

 

 

Geni: Jørgen Mortensen born ca 1787:  
https://www.geni.com/people/Morten-Paulsen-Skjatvet/6000000007886048223?through=6000000135767565895

Database of Danish (and Norwegian) prisoners (prisonfanger) of war:

https://navneregistre.dis-danmark.dk/prison/pri_vis_form.php

https://navneregistre.dis-danmark.dk/prison/

Ellen mentions that she has found some prisoners of war from Hedmark, but that their stated places of birth did not match. One study points out that the British obtained information about names and places of birth orally, and that this information may not always have been understood or recorded correctly:

Tim Leunig, Jelle van Lottum and Bo Poulsen
Surprisingly Gentle Confinement: British Treatment of Danish and Norwegian Prisoners of War During the Napoleonic Wars

https://researchonline.lse.ac.uk/id/eprint/90491/1/Leunig__surprisingly-gentle-confinement.pdf

“The sample looks unbiased, therefore, and consists of 3,645 prisoners, 1,178 Danes and 2,457 Norwegians. Everyone in the dataset is a man. They vary in age between 8 and 80, with half being between 22 and 35. They were born between 1728 and 1805, with half being born 1780–1790. 1,960 were captured from merchant navy vessels, 746 from privateers, 559 from ‘men of war’, and the remaining 380 from other, including not recorded. A Dane or Norwegian giving their name and place of birth orally to a British person in 1810 does not guarantee an accurate written record of names, or places of birth. Similarly, old English handwriting is not always straightforward to read, especially as words were often abbreviated.”

As for the twentieth century and the Second World War, we also have a man from Våler, Asbjørn Gjerdrum, who served as a wartime sailor (in London May 1945):

 

https://www.krigsseilerregisteret.no/sjofolk/494617/monstringer

The topic has many (991) views, but apparently no Norwegians have been able to contribute any help so far.
Hopefully Ellen will now get a little more assistance.

 

(translated from Norwegian with help from AI/ChatGPT)

 

Opprinnelig tekst på norsk:

 

Jeg tror vi bør gå over til norsk språk for å få med lokalkjente her. Jeg har dessverre ikke tid til å følge opp, men har funnet noe informasjon som kan være til hjelp. I lenken til folketellingen 1865 var Mathias Halvorsen og familie bosatt på Vestre Gjerdrum (Vestby). I bygdeboken (kun tilgjengelig for norske IP adresser) for Våler finner vi under Vestre Gjerdrum, side 218, en mann, Morten Paulsen, som reiste til København ca 1803 og det nevnes at hans sønn, Jørgen Mortensen, var krigsfange i England rundt 1810-1812:

 

https://www.nb.no/items/f226a1a5e4a9e605989e5dc9f5fc00fb?page=221&searchText=krigsfange

 

Geni: Jørgen Mortensen born ca 1787:  
https://www.geni.com/people/Morten-Paulsen-Skjatvet/6000000007886048223?through=6000000135767565895

 

Database over danske (norske) prisonfanger:

 

https://navneregistre.dis-danmark.dk/prison/pri_vis_form.php

https://navneregistre.dis-danmark.dk/prison/

 

Ellen nevner at hun har funnet noen prisonfanger fra Hedmark, men at fødested ikke stemte.
Et studie sier at engelskmenn fikk informasjon om navn og fødested muntlig og at det den gang kanskje ikke ble oppfattet riktig:

Tim Leunig, Jelle van Lottum and Bo Poulsen Surprisingly gentle confinement: British treatment of Danish and Norwegian prisoners of war during the napoleonic wars:

 

https://researchonline.lse.ac.uk/id/eprint/90491/1/Leunig__surprisingly-gentle-confinement.pdf

«The sample looks unbiased, therefore, and consists of 3,645 prisoners, 1,178 Danes and 2,457 Norwegians. Everyone in the dataset is a man. They vary in age between 8 and 80, with half being between 22 and 35. They were born between 1728 and 1805, with half being born 1780-1790. 1,960 were captured from merchant navy vessels, 746 from privateers, 559 from ‘men of war’, and the remaining 380 from other, including not recorded. A Dane or Norwegian giving their name and place of birth orally to a British person in 1810 does not guarantee an accurate written record of names, or places of birth. Similarly, old English handwriting is not always straightforward to read, especially as words were often abbreviated. «

Når det gjelder perioden 1900-tallet og andre verdenskrig, så har vi en mann, Asbjørn Gjerdrum fra Våler, som var krigsseiler (på-/avmønstring London 1945):

 

https://www.krigsseilerregisteret.no/sjofolk/494617/monstringer

 

Emnet har snart 1.000 visninger men ingen nordmenn med hjelp, så håper nå at Ellen får litt mer drahjelp.

Endret 13 timer siden av Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo
Jørgen Mortensen var krigsfange (ikke hans far).

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

42 minutter siden, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo skrev:

In the local farm book for Våler (which, unfortunately, is only accessible from Norwegian IP addresses), we find, under Vestre Gjerdrum on page 218, a man named Morten Paulsen. He travelled to Copenhagen around 1803, and it is mentioned that his son, Jørgen Mortensen, was a prisoner of war in England around 1810–1812:

 

??

 

Ancestry:

 

https://www.ancestry.se/search/collections/63094/records/504471?tid=&pid=&queryId=3c8e1321-3dc8-4e53-b200-0c26f7f1ee04&_phsrc=mnG5&_phstart=successSource

 

Name
Jorgen Mortensen
Military rank
Seaman
Age at capture
22
Type of record
Register
Date of birth
Circa 1788
Place of birth
Christiana [Christiania] Christiania (Oslo)?
Date of arrival
27 June
Date captured
30 April 1810
Place of capture
Near the Belt
Date released
15 June 1814
Description
Location: Chatham. Nationality: Danish. Register of prisoners of war.

 

The National Archives; Kew, London, England; ADM 103: Navy Board and predecessors: Prisoner of War Department and predecessors: Registers of Prisoners of War; Referens: ADM 103/63

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

1 time siden, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo skrev:

. I bygdeboken (kun tilgjengelig for norske IP adresser) for Våler finner vi under Vestre Gjerdrum, side 218, en mann, Morten Paulsen, som reiste til København ca 1803 og det nevnes at hans sønn, Jørgen Mortensen, var krigsfange i England rundt 1810-1812:

 

https://www.nb.no/items/f226a1a5e4a9e605989e5dc9f5fc00fb?page=221&searchText=krigsfange

 

Fra oldnews.com :

 

Kiøbenhavns Kongelig alene priviligerede Adresse-Contoirs Efterretninger
23. jan 1810  •  Copenhagen, Denmark

 

Her nevnes Jørgen Mortensen fra Sollør i Norge som for en del år siden reiste med sin far, Morten Gjerdrum, til København og ble arbeider ved Holmen (der sjøfolk holdt til).
Han bes om å ta kontakt med en fullmektig i Generaldireksjonen (?) ang familieanliggender. Muligens odelsaken som er nevnt i bygdeboken?

 

 

 

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

OldNews:

 

Kiøbenhavns Kongelig alene priviligerede Adresse-Contoirs Efterretninger
23. apr 1817  •  Copenhagen, Denmark

 

Tømmermand Jørgen Mortensen - ser ut som det er donasjoner til en kasse for skadede og etterlatte (etter prisonfanger i Napoleonskrigen?).

 

[Dag F Gravem]

Morten Paulsen Vestre Gjerdrum med familie i FT 1801, nr. 21-26.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01058242004231